www.sdpathram.com

As soon as the news about the Pentecostal Rally is announced,a flood of reactions to it both positive and negative is heard and seen. Really it is good sign. Our public is at least thinking and active not inactive or indifferent.

Our faith is based on our knowledge and experience and as these variables change our actions and reactions change. We all agree that our knowledge and experience and vision change every moment. So what is that we are arguing about, something as stable as the sands on the seashore.

Can we see things as Jesus see it. Jesus is the most misunderstood person here. Over the years Jesus is characterised as a weakling who show the other cheek always. Jesus had no problem to make a whip and cleanse the temple of criminals and thieves. Nobody want to preach about that side of Jesus Character. When Jesus said to show the other cheek it is only at a personal level not public cause. Even soldiers come and ask what we need to do. They were asked to do their job. Due to our own selfishness and cowardice and concern for comfort we wear a veil of spirituality to run away from troubling questions that can cause us pain. I admire the courage of Pastor K. C. John and other leaders of our church who has seen the need to stay together and raise voice against injustice. Most of us react like the priest and Levite in the story of the Good Samaritan pretend not seeing the need for action. This is pure selfishness.

The place this writer is from Mallappally- meaning a place were wrestlers are taking their final rest. Those leaders in the community had no problen to raise their hand and give a strong blow when they saw injustice around forgetting their own safety and comfort. Those were the days when there is no police or soldiers were readily available. because of that ladies and the weak in the society could walk without fear. What type of leaders we have now- those who run away when the wolves are after the sheep, finding the veil of spirituality to escape leaving the sheeps to its own fate. Pastor has an obligation to protect the sheeps given in their protection. Do I wait to call the police when somebody is attacking my children or try to snatch them from me. I will kill with anything I get in my hand. It is a sin if I didn't do that. Hope our believers will see things in its proper light and stand united when an outside attack comes against us.

 Best wishes and prayers

Ninan Mathullah

President

C  A  P  S

Community Service of Greater Houston

A dialogue on this issue is good. But I am not sure I understand Bro Ninan's point. The president of ipc organization is the shepard of pentecostals in kerala?? moreover, this is an action against injustice? what injustice? a rally in trivandrum is raising our voice against injustice to us. Did not our master, the Jesus,  whose name you took in vain to make a incoherant argument, say you will not get justice in this world??? by the way, if this is about a rally against the government, we better be careful. It is relatively calm in kerala. The communists know our strength and have been smart about it. They even protected our conventions.

 The persecution is happening in north india, karnataka. I challenge any of these leaders to raise a single finger against the governments in these states!! this is standing for the sheep if the argument about being the shepards have a validity anyway.

 Varghese

Dear Brother Ninan,

 Your initial comment that the mixed response to the rally is a sign that our people think is true. Obviously, you support the rally but  with all due respect, your reasoning is absurd! What does a show of strength have to do with the shepards taking care of the sheep?? Who appointed pastors k.c. john or t. j samuel as shepards of the pentecostal community in india? who leads them - this is the bigger question. I am really concerned about the spirit that guides some of our "leaders".  Even if they are our shephards, how will a rally protect us from injustice. Maybe you can explain what this injustice is? I was taught that for the sake of Christ, we will suffer much on this earth and that the only place we will receive justice is before God.

 Moreover, the example of Jesus cleansing the temple has nothing to do with this rally. Jesus cleansed the "temple" from the thieves and businessmen, not Herod, Pilate, or the rulers of those times. Or in other words, Jesus would have cleansed the church today of these thieves and businessmen..not the government of kerala or india!! And by the way, everyone preaches about the need to cleanse OUR temples/churches. Please do not use the word of God to make or justify your personal support of the rally. You are entitled to your opinion, thats your personal choice. But bringing Jesus into this or misquoting verses just help to reveal ignorance than help make any solid argument in favor the rally.

Maybe I have misunderstood you - i read it few times to make sense it. Maybe it will help if you would specify who are the 1) sheep, 2) wolf, 3) outside attackers? What is the"injustice"?

 Cherian S

Mr. Ninan,

You make no sense. Your thought process and points are not clear.  You contradict yourselves by saying two different opposite things at the same time.

a brother who wants peace in this world.

Dear Bro. Ninan

Read Gene. 11:1-4 . Our leaders are trying to "Make a name for themseleves" . 

" What type of leaders we have now- those who run away when the wolves are after the sheep, finding the veil of spirituality to escape leaving the sheeps to its own fate. Pastor has an obligation to protect the sheeps given in their protection. Do I wait to call the police when somebody is attacking my children or try to snatch them from me. I will kill with anything I get in my hand. It is a sin if I didn't do that. Hope our believers will see things in its proper light and stand united when an outside attack comes against us."

how  a pastor protect his sheeps,  as a converted penetecostal beleiver my answer  is by prayer. You dont want to call police call unto Lord. we can see the answer from heavenly father. Read Revelation 19: 14- 15, I beleive InLORD JESUS CHRIST.Read  Revelation 21: 3-5. I beleive IN JESUS not our so called pentecostal sheaperds.

Prakash

A believer

Dear Mr. Varghese,

Thank you for your response. I would prefer you introduce yourself with your full name and address. Please show the courage to say what you think is right.

When Jesus is characterised in the media and books in the wrong sense recently, how many of us responded to that. If it was against you or somebody closely related to you, would you have responded. It may not be opractical for all the people to go to northern states and respond to the injustice there. The media will do that job. Locally they can do that as the next step. If Jesus just did the good work and heal the sick and feed the hungry, nobody has any problem with that. Because Jesus raised fingers against injustice that he had to suffer. Jesus always suffered personal attacks not retaliating against it. We have to show the other cheek if the attack is personal. This rally must be peaceful. This rally is not against any governments. It is to get the attention of the government which is supposed to protect the lives and property of people and provide security to people to live in peace as guaranteed in the constituition. I have always respect for the good things communists do. God can use anybody to protect you if you can do anything possible to protect you, even moving the little finger. How can you share the Gospel to the communists with this attitude about communists. Please don't take what I said as personal. I only meant believes to think. We need to have a birds eye view of things rather than a narrow outlook.

Best wishes and prayers

 Ninan Mathullah

Mr. Prakash

Is it not a type of Judgement about all our leaders

 Ninan Mathullah

Dear Mr. Cherian S?

Thank you for your response. I don't think this is a show of strength. We are raising our voice against injustice to fellow human beings. Your question- who apponted pastor K . C . John, the question is not directly to me. As a third person I am asking you a question. Where did John the Baptists baptism came from? God is the one who give the calling and when a person rise to that calling the public gives its acceptance. Please refer to my answer to 3189 for answers to some of your questions.

You are right. For the sake of Christ we will suffer all personal attacks but not against public cause or your God given position or authority. How will you respond when your son question your authority as a father. You just suffer it. Then you are inviting disaster.

All authority is from God. Also God has placed checks and balances. if they don't do their job, who is to blame. This rally must be an effort to bring the attention of government at all levels which is supposed to protect the lives of people and property and provide security to live in peace as guaranteed in the constituition.

When I brought Jesus in to it, it is my personal opinion- the Jesus I know. I am growing everyday in the knowledge of Jesus. My aim is to grow to the level of Jesus the head. Words and I have limitations in expressing things clearly. Hope I answered your questions to the best of my knowledge.

Thank you

 Best wishes and prayers

Ninan Mathullah

Houston

Bro Ninan,

 You said " When Jesus is characterised in the media and books in the wrong sense recently, how many of us responded to that. If it was against you or somebody closely related to you, would you have responded."

>> good question, very relevant. How many of these leaders responded to these? Atleast a press statement condemning it? Not a single one! Where was KC John, TJ Samuel and other church leaders when Jesus was mischaracterized as being a member of cpm polit bureau. Waiting till Dec 22 to let them know we are upset?? When was the last time, you saw a press release by pentecostal leaders condeming attacks against Christians? Everyone and their brother in other christian churches reacted except for these selfish leaders. IF it was one of them who was even scrached, it would have been on the front pages of our spineless papers and you will see hundreds of condemnations from every pentecostal.   My dear brother, why are you so easily deceived? Don't be a leader worshipper, be a God worshipper. You are one of those blind "fans"/worshippers of these so called leaders without the courage to see through their devious works for personal gains.  

You said "Because Jesus raised fingers against injustice that he had to suffer. Jesus always suffered personal attacks not retaliating against it. We have to show the other cheek if the attack is personal. This rally must be peaceful. This rally is not against any governments. It is to get the attention of the government which is supposed to protect the lives and property of people and provide security to people to live in peace as guaranteed in the constituition."

Brother Ninan, are you one of the co conveners of this rally who knows something the rest of the leaders haven't revealed?? None of them said it was about raising voices against injustice. Not one of them has said that in any of their press releases. In one press release, the president said it was about pentecostal unity, the need for people of God to come together. In an interview he said it was about proving that we were not a minority - that we have a misconception that we are a minority and the society thinks we are a minority and this rally will help change that perception - prove that pentecostals are a great number. In another news, they proclaimed that no community has had the kind of growth we the pentecostals have had in a short period of time, and so the government needs to see that. Brother, this is called " SHOW OF STRENGTH". You are the only one who said this a rally against injustice. A show of strength is usually done to earn mileage. This is about getting us seats in the assembly elections. The leaders privately have admitted it long time ago. People like you and me, see one face of these leaders , while privately they are all worse than the worldly people. We believers are donkeys as they say in politics. While they use the rally for the stated goals, people like yourself and myself try to give it a new meaning like rally against injustice, trying to justify acts that will bear no good than harm, benefit couple of individuals. Brother, do you support spending Rs 50lakhs for this rally against "injustice"? What greater "injustice" to the lost souls that we spend this much money for a show of strength when that money could be used for the evangelisation of North India!! Willing to fight against this injustice??? Jesus would have whooped all us for this!

Thomas J. George, NY 

Dear Thomas J George,

Thank you for showing the courage to reveal yourself instead of remaining anonymous. I understand the sincerity in your words. At the same time we have to admit that we have limitations. Our knowledge is limited. Some of the things I know even if I want to reveal to you I can't. Based on the available knowledge when I come to a conclusion and point my index finger in one direction, three other fingers are pointing in the opposite direction that I am not aware of and the thumb is pointing upwards and there is the overall control of God in all things that happen as God is the author of history and His fingers write history as is in His Master Plan.Yes, Our knowledge is limited. Job had many justifications for the way he felt. At last God ask him some questions only and Job says now onwards I won't say a word.

I can't judge on the motives of a person unless a pattern there as proof and even then it is not necessary that your conclusion is right. One can only do his or her duty. As law abiding citizens of a country you have every right, and responsibility to fulfil those duties. God is not against exercising yours civic duties. We are entitled to our rightful share of representation in the assembly. This must be an occasion to glorify His name there. In this context let me add the following for your consideration

SIN OF OMISSION AND COMMISSION- A CALL TO ACTION

A few months ago a friend of mine, was discussing with me the political, social and religious issues in our native place. My friend boasted that we Pentecostals do not get to the street to protest or to hold banner for anybody. I asked him why you do not get involved in these social and political issues in the community, His reply was, “This will affect our comfort and ease of mind”. To not get involved in the social and political issues facing the community we live in, if it is due to concern for our comfort, is it not selfishness? And selfishness is SIN.

According to Bhaghavat Gita of Indian Mythology, as advised by Krishna to Arjuna, not doing things, when you are in a position to do so, is sin. Arjuna is going to face his relatives, teachers and friends in battle. Facing them, he lost all his courage and put his bow, the Gandhiva down. Though he is fighting this battle for the sake of justice, he doesn’t want that justice, if the price to be paid is so high. Now Krishna, who is the incarnation of God, is advising Arjuna as to why it is necessary to take action.

According to Bible definition, breaking of the Law is sin. The Ten Commandments in the Bible can be grouped in to two- things you should do and things you shouldn’t do. Doing things we shouldn’t do and not doing things we are expected to do are sins- both come out of our selfishness. In other words, selfishness is SIN. Philippians 2:3 “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit…each of us should look not only to our own interests, but also to the interest of others”. In Jesus there was no sin- Jesus who being in the very nature God didn’t consider equality with God something to be grasped, but…obedient to death, even death to a cross. Real beauty is beauty of mind and Jesus is the most beautiful as there is no selfishness or ugliness in him. Apostle Paul reminds us through Romans that, even thoughts not according to faith is sin. Now, you might ask who is there without sin or selfishness. Yes we are all sinners. But we can come to the throne of Grace any time as Jesus has died for our sins.

Recently this writer was talking to a priest and friend in the Orthodox Church about the criterion used in declaring a person saint. The context was a report of declaring Vattasseril Gevarghese Mar Divanyassos as a saint by the Orthodox Church. The No. 1 reason was his standing for the cause of the church even in the face of threat to his own life. Apostle Paul says he doesn’t consider his life precious when it comes to Gospel. Jesus says there is no love greater than giving his life for his brother. In the Second World War, Americans, British, Russians and others were ready to sacrifice the life of their children for the sake of the freedom we enjoy now. Several races and ethnic groups including mine would have gone to gas chamber if Hitler had won that war. Turning the other cheek is only at a personal level. Jesus had no problem to use force to cleanse the temple.

We usually get carried away by our own self-importance and close our eyes to the truth. We have strange concepts of sin and holiness, right and wrong and fairness and justice. An appearance of holiness is seen widespread in the Christian Community. Things you and I couldn’t do because circumstances were not favorable or things we like to do or have a talent for doing or things we don’t enjoy doing are projected out as signs of holiness. Our Lord who has the eyes as the flame of fire can test our intentions and actions and everything done out of selfishness will burn down to ashes and everything done for the glory of God will stand out like Silver and Gold.

When there is a problem in our family we take immediate action. When there is a problem in church or social club we belong to, most of us come together and discuss it and take necessary action. When it come to a problem in the community we live in, we don’t get involved. You and I must be thinking, “Well it is not my problem alone, why should I get involved and spent my time and energy”. Is it not selfishness? Is it not sin? A problem in my family is my problem. A problem in the church I belong to is my problem and a problem in the community I belong to is my problem too. There is a tendency among us to discuss the subject as news, express sympathy on it or pray about it and take no action, which is in effect testing God. If there is anything possible we can do, we need to take the initiative and make a move with prayer and God Almighty’s Hand will be with us no matter what the immediate outcome is. Remember the story of a fire in a ship- one group thought the fire is further away from my cabin so somebody else put that out. Another group preferred to pray about it. Another small group took bucket full of water and tried to put the fire out while praying at the same time. To which group you belong? A fire in the ship can sink the whole ship. A small problem in the community can grow big and bring down the whole community, if we don’t act on it. (This is not against patience or deciding not to act or respond, which itself is a thought out action, instead of ignoring it) Recently we had the issue of a legal marriage. We all talked about it and left it there, waiting for the next issue to talk about. God reminds Israel through Prophet Ezekiel- “Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: “when I bring sword against a land and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people and if anyone hears the trumpet and doesn’t take warning and the sword come and take his life, his blood will be on his own head. Since he heard the trumpet but didn’t take warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had taken warning, he would have saved himself”.

We are all citizens or legal residents of this great country. God has given this to you and me to live in it and take care of it. God gave the Promised Land to Israelites. But they had to claim that as their own. Caleb asked God for Hebron and God gave that to him. God asked him to claim that for himself. The brothers and sisters around you, God has given to us. We have to claim them as your own brothers and sisters in Christ by meeting their need to know Christ, by reflecting Christ to them. Even your wife, husband uncle, aunt and children, God has given you and you have to claim them as yours by meeting their needs (including disciplinary needs).

How you are going to claim this land for yourself? By taking care of its needs. Why we couldn’t raise a volunteers to help, when hurricane Katrina strike. And we have a poor opinion of the people who get involved and help as we call them politicians. God view things differently. Public administration and service is a gift from God with special anointing. Get involved in the Civic organizations in our community- Home Owners Assoc, School Board, City Council, State Legislature and Congress. Field candidates that hold the same Christian values as you hold and campaign for them and get out and vote for them. We need watchmen in all these Civic Organizations. Some people call this politics. Whatever we call it, we are meeting the needs of people and the generations to come. All the hospitals, libraries, parks and public institutions of use we enjoy now are the selfless work of some behind it. We remember them as, blessed is the memory of the righteous.

God has given one more day in our life to open our hand and work, to glorify His name through our work. Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good work and glorify His name (Mathew 5:16). Let our work- our actions and reactions be an opportunity to glorify His name. Instead of chasing fantasies of get rich quick schemes, let us open our hand and work and His Hand will be with us.

                                                                                                                                         Paul Mathulla

Hi,

Interesting discussion...!

I totally agree with the rally, if its peaceful, involving all denominations, to show the government, parties, and the society as a whole our christ like response to injustice. Its true the world has hated gods chosen always and protesting/rallying doesnt neccessarily bring in a favourable atmosphere for missions in india.

I sincerely desire to see a United pentecostal rally somewhere in india ( cant wait till eternity...!!?? ), or even in broader terms a rally of all christians interdenominationally, who believe in salvation through jesus christ and basic tenets of the bible. Not to demonstrate our strength, but to somehow show them back that we love them for all that they do against us.

There is lots of leader worship, denomination spirit, and man made doctrines going around that hinders us from coming together.

Let me ask some questions..

Instead of a POWER rally, why cant all pentecostal churches decide to fast UNITED..?

Why cant we decide to start supplying food, clothing, medicine and demonstrate our love for our fellow humanbeings UNITED when a natural calamity hits our country???

Why cant we be UNITED for acts of kindness to those amoung who are heathen so that when they see our action than words will turn to real salvation?

Why cant our UNITED leaders decide to disband all different names like IPC, AG, SHARON, BELIEVERS CHURCH, etc and come under a UNITED PENTECOSTAL MOVEMENT...and show the world that we are one????

RALLY IS GOOD IF THE INTENTION IS GOOD..but my dear pente leaders, there are lots of other priorities in Indian evangelism..millions are out there hopeless...

I tend to be optimistic amidst all this.there is still a generation out there who silently faithfully do Lord work. I am not against having christian politicians in India, but I doubt there are few amoung our leaders who can be like DANIEL, to uphold gods will even at the risk of being thrown to a lions den or burning fire... IPPO RAASHTREEYATHIL KALLANMARE DARAAALAM UNDALLO...AVARODE MALSARIKANO..?

Organising pentecostals together should happen from the top level. I mean the leaders. Let them say why they started different organisations???

Let them make it public why they build different HEADQUARTERS? Parsonages? election dramas?? flooding churches within a single km radius??

My panchayat has around 40 pentecostal churches in the 3 km radius..i can understand if there was 1 church/sq.km. evanmarkke entha thalakke sthiratha ille??

Let them clarify why they spend funds from believers for this many conventions?? I heard we have around 4000 conventions, crusades and seminars in kerala. It might be more as we have plenty of independent churches and missions sprouting like mushrooms every monsoon season...! Just imagine how many lakhs of our money is being wasted. We could have managed with maximum 50 conventions like one in Maramon, if we were united...? do i make sense folks?

I originally come from Syrian orthodox church..though they have deviated from the true scriptures, they know how to capitalise their resources...and they build big churches with thousands of members, have big feasts, or atleast they never build churches face to face and compete with eachother...

First let the leaders reach a consensus...let their be a common agenda, and a plan to work together to reach out india, to build pentecostal church as a whole.

Let Pastors in India unite, let them travel around kerala to create awareness amoung our churches and believers that christians should unite.

Let them see first hand- the real INDIA, the millions of people in villages, living in hunger, ignorance, diseased conditions and utter poverty..Might prompt those who have christs compassion to forsake their bungalows, estates and luxuries and to really follow christ the great leader....

Let them decide to form a United pentecostal organisation for all India. ( it might take decades but someone has to take the pain to lay the foundation )

Let them live a simple, holy life, above reproach, and show an example in everything for each one of us to follow...

and more ... as needed to confirm themselves to the scriptures and gods will..

Then we can have a rally for a peaceful demonstration...I will be the first to volunteer..!

any addins..comments or criticisms?? dear forum members????

jesus freaks

hai good thought,

inorder to answer all your questions ...are our leaders making a united movement.

after this a success then they will think of more steps....that u need.

expressing our sole support and quietly moving behind the annointed ones can change the world to christ.

 prayers

Jesus freaks,

 very good post. I thoroughly enjoyed your posting and it was thought provoking. I am against the rally being organised by the so called leaders today but I am all in favor of a rally of the nature suggested by you. I can assure you that none of these leaders can answer your answers nor have the courage to do the things you suggested. I would love to see that happen. I am not convinced of the intentions of this rally especially one led by the current leaders. But yes, we need a gathering...can some of the younger generation come together beyond denominations lines and show the unity of the churches? How about a united fasting and prayer meeting? That is what we need today!

 God bless you brother.

 Jose.

law,

great defences to the criticisms.

we need to accept something that is current...rather longing for future.

something is better than nothing !!!!

Hi    ?

 Most of the ideas presented sounds very good to me. I didn't like your taking Jesus name in vain to identify yourself.

 Please don't be offended. Bible says, lest your brothers sin fall on you, you must rebuke him earnestly. Jesus is God

and please don't take Jesus name in vain. Please be bold enough to say who you are and where you are from.

Cowardice is a serious sin.

I agree with you that this rally must be peaceful. Let the whole world know our meekness. Even if somebody try to

provoke you, still you must keep your presence of mind. This is not a sign of weakness but strength.

Now there is another discussion going on as to how to evangelise India. The way I see it the core issue in Gandhiji's

words, "I would have become a christian but for these christians" As you said some form of unity among the christians

will help to evangelise India. A single organsiation is not practical. Jesus selected 12 disciples. A single organisation

can't do the job of spreading the good news to the wholw world. But we can co-operate with others and agree with

others in areas where we can agree.

Jesus Christ is the son of God

Jesus died for our sins and ressructed the third day

There is salvation only through Christ.

Jesus is coming a second time.

If we can agree on the above, the rest of the differences only skin deep and is necessary if we won't get carried

off by our own self importance. Even if some think the issues are not skin deep, still we can come together and co-operate.

What is preventing us from this is our own insecurity. Coming together will only help the effort to evangelise India.

Otherwise we are saying one thing and doing the opposite. We can't see that but an outsider can easily see

through the hypocaracy in it.

You are right, we need leaders like Daniel who is appointed above all the administrators in the country who make policy

decisions to advice the king as to how to run the country.

Mushrooming churches are a problem. Our energy and resources are dissipated. I believe independent churches

are not Biblical. The congregational system of church administration is not menmtioned anywhere in the Bible.

Is it Biblical that a committee that rule over the pastor who is supposed to be the shepherd of the church. We need

positions above the pastor like apostles to direct the pastor. Because of these weaknessess and lack of a strong

central organisation and administration, our efforts are not effetive. First we need to have the discipline to stay put

under authority. We don't want to accept anybody above our church as an apostle. We bend and interpret verses

to suit our need or selfish motives. Syrian Orthodox Church has an administration and a heirarchy of positions.

 We are not disciplined enough to allow that. If we don't have a strong organisation and the job security that offers.

 Our children and best talents will not come forward to become a pastor or evangelist until this happens. God has given us intelligence

and common sense. Are we incapable of using it? We all want independent churches so that we don't have to listen to

anybody. We can't blame the leaders fully as leaders are what the believers selected.

Let us pray and work for things to change. In the meantime we must support this rally and pray for it and our leaders

Ninan Mathullah

Houston