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Dear Mathew,

Thank you for your honest comments.  What I want to convey are (1) dont say that what our fathers have done is wrong doctrines.  If yes, in your opinion our parents will not go to heaven.  Because they just saw a kerala pentecostal movement, not a big global pentecostal movement.  In other words our parents are all sinners.  The greatest sin they have done is given us education so that we came to USA and we saw the global pentecostal movement that they could not see.. (2) Do not turn to eat what our forefathers vomitted (Ornaments)!!!

God Bless

Evg. Prakash

Dear Evg Prakash,

 I read your comments  on this issue on this and another related topic. As Brother Mathew said, you mentioned some interesting points but I think some of the scriptures may have been taken out of context.  I personnally don't care about ornaments either way and that is not because of any doctrinal convictions but because I was raised without it, never felt the need for it,have no desire for it and respect the tradition that our forefathers set. However, I wouldn't ask a new believer to do the same especially since there is no strong scriptural argument for it in my understanding. I know we tend to say that our forefathers gave it up for a simple life style - which is partly true but a majority of them also did quote scriptures for it like you did. I have personnally heard and read some of the old well respected pioneers of the movement in kerala make an argument against ornaments ( when I was much younger and I have forgotten what all they quoted) . As they got older a good number of them moved away from the simple life they chose earlier - better houses, cars, clothers etc ( nothing wrong with that) but they still considered ornaments as sin. But I don't think because they preached against jewellry, they sinned as you have raised in the question to Brother Mathew. You have kinda stretched his comments beyond what he intended to convey. Nor are they at fault for not looking at the global pentecostal movement ( some of them didnt use ornaments either earlier but I dont know what the reasoning was) . With the limited knowledge of the world our forefathers served the Lord whole heartedly and sincerely. None of this will be factor limiting them from going to heaven. I don't think we need to be so stuck on this issue. Leave it to the conscience of the believer. I think we have done enough damage with our narrow views on this issue. Traditions and culture are great but we shouldn't impose it when it comes to faith.

teddies.

Evg. Prakash,

 All your arguments doesnt have any biblical, social or intellectual standing. Just some one liners and slogans like "Do not turn to eat what our forefathers vomitted" Your forefather saw the kerala pentecost because some dedicated people from Europe or US came to India as missionaries. Have you great `historian' heard about a person named `Kukku Sayippu'. So think a little more before you start open your mouth to tarnish people in US ans Europe.

Sorry for being a little harsh, but I am sick and tired of `evangelist' who hardly work for 10 hours a week and then say "God asked me to come to Dublin or US" 

Paul
 

Hi Paul,

You are limiting your views only upto Kukku Sayippu.  Why dont you go back to AD52 when (as we believe) St. Thomas came to India and preached the gospel?  Why dont we go back to AD52 when Syrian missionaries came to Kerala and spread christianity?  Why cant we look at certain christian community in the USA (whites), with no jewerlry / ornaments? 

I think Evangelist Prakash has a point and if you deeply think our forefathers not only have looked at the Kerala Pentecostalism but also the word of God which has no boudaries and is for every human being in this earth.  Their vision and intentions of removing the ornaments were not just for Kerala Malayalee Pentecostal believers, In my opinion, they had a very wide focus on the Scriptures and they have had the knowledge from it with the help of the Holy Spirit.  So we should not just be looking at either Kerala Pentecostalism or American Pentecostalism, but rather the global pentecostalism. 

Let us not point our fingures to the writers and "direct-shoot" them, rather let us try to keep the integrity of this Forum and I hope that we can learn many things from all writers of these forums, which I have already started doing myself.

Tom TX

Brother Paul, Your comments are good but as a real believer how come you are harsh?  If you want to eat the vomitted stuff (I man jewelry), dont give others an impression that you are right and everybody else should also wear the ornaments.  This is called hypocracy. 

You have no right to say that "evangelist hardly work for 10 hours a week".  Do you know this evangelist?  Did he tell you that he works hardly 10 hours a week?  Are you paying him for 40 hours and so are angry with him since he only works 10 hours?  Dear, its not your look out how many hours anyone else work or not work.  If God has asked Evangelist to go to Dublin, why cant you believe it?  Not trusting people is a kind of disease which is not biblical too.  So let us believe that this Evangelist is working for the Lord in Dublin, as we all believe that you are a strong believer.  Can we also believe that you are a worldly man????  Brother, let us all be filled with God's love and trust each others.  Do not discourage someone, even if you cannot encourage.  Do not block the way of someone, even if you cannot help someone grow. 

Yours in Him

P.G. Mathew.

Teddies,

As you said if we leave this matter to the conscience of the believer, there will be some new comers in the church who will be confused by looking at some people without and some with jewelry. These new comers are not strong in faith yet and there is a chance of them having tonnes of questions.  I am not saying that avoiding ornaments is the symbol of holy life.  I do trust that it is a mark of separation.  And that is the reason pentecostal fathers and mothers have got rid of it, also to lead a simple life. 

We are called to have a simple life, if Jesus Christ Himself could come out of the Glory in heaven to be called son of Mary.  Jesus was born not in a palace, though he could have been.  So why cant we avoid the luxuries of this world?  I think we are not thinking much about the life in the enternity where we wil have all jewels used for building the houses and roads.  If we pentecostals think about our eternal experience to come, we can lead a simple life here.  We like to have all the luxuries here, because we dont think about our eternal life.

I also notice that these days many pastors are not teaching about man's eternal life  in churches, cottage meetings, Bible Study, etc.  Everybody is focused around Moses, Elijha, David.  Pastors, could we start teaching eternal life, eternal judgement, eternal salvation, etc. which strenthens the faith of believers and increases the hope of the eternity.  If our believers are taught strongly about eternal life then we all will consider these (precious) things as dust and nothing.

Pastor

Dear Prakash,

None of this discussion  help any one to go  to heaven dear.

Faith in Christ alone will take us there.

No ornaments, No white cloths and none of our old traditions will help us in this regard.

Mathew vackayil 

Dear Mathew Vackayil,

Hope you are not a pastor.  Let me quote someone's notes from another thread here...

If we have a church-pastor, and if we see him next sunday in the church worship session in a color "kailee" and a "round thorth" on his head, preaching and worshipping God, what would we say?  The truth is, all of us like to see our Pastor in that white dress (I am not only talking about USA but also Kerala pastors)?

If we like our pastors to dress in white always, and if we expect him not to have "komban meesha", and "ornaments" why cant we have and follow "simplycity" among believers too?   If we cannot accept simplicity among believers, we should keep mum when we may see pastors in colour "kailee" on the pulpit.

Pastor

Dear Mathew,

I agree with you 100%. Not only this thread, but also none of the threads would change the attitude of we malayalees.  This discussion forum seems to me like people coming and throwing their knowledge (opinions) in public.  Nobody is benefitted.  Can anyone stand up and say he has changed his life/attitude because of this Message Board???

Also Agree. Faith in Christ alone will take us there.  Gideon had faith, but we read that he was asked to demolish all the idols of bal and ashera temples that His father used to worship.  Faith should come out in action.  If I say "I have faith" and I dont bring it to action, it is not a real faith.  Abraham had faith, and hence he started the journey to a land which he did not see yet.

Whatever changes that are there in our inside, will be reflected to the world through our external appearance.  Simplicity is just one of them.  We should remember Jesus had not enough clothes on the cross?  He became shameful that all passers-by were shaking their heads on him...  Why we use lip-sticks, why cant we just through these show-ups (like ornaments, costly dresses, expensive cars, etc)?  We should have dress, we should have car, I am not against these, but we should not have the expensive ones to show our brothers in the church that we are "something great". 

Phil 2: 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name.

God Bless.

Evg. Prakash

some people say they cannot worship when they see other pentecostals wearing jewellry at church. It is an "edercha" for them. What do you say to that? should the person stop wearing it so that the person does not cause "edercha" or should the person just try to get over it? sometimes it is hard for people who have been born and brought up in pentecostal churches and in it for years to accept people with ornaments especially when the people who wear it to church know that it is not a practise in the church.

"Why we use lip-sticks, why cant we just through these show-ups (like ornaments, costly dresses, expensive cars, etc)?  We should have dress, we should have car, I am not against these, but we should not have the expensive ones to show our brothers in the church that we are "something great".  "  Also I see in other posts that everyone should simple but then it is relative. So what is expensive? What if something is expensive to you does it mean that brother with expensive car or house is trying to show off? May be because the  person can afford a good car or good house he buy it. Because he likes that car or likes that house. How is that showng off? How can we know when someone bought a car to show off? If people can afford something then what is wrong. Why think they showing off. Some may be show off but not all.

Not Showoff

 

That is a good point. Because people have good houses or cars we cannot always say they trying to show off. People sometimes buy something because they like it and if it looks good to others doesnt always have to taken as trying to show off.

siby

We as christians are supposed to think about our other brothers who dont have anything before we buy everything we like. That is what I said simplicity is an attitude. When we talk about simplicity, the purpose of being simple is to sacrifice our desires so that we can help those who dont have. It is not about show off or what others think. It is about what God thinks about you being selfish and getting everything that you like and not worrying about your fellow brothers who are struggling. The example given by Jesus is to sacrifice all His wealth and glory and power and became the poorest of the poor so that He can make us rich in Him. The same way we are to lead a simple life so that we can use the rest of our wealth to make other people rich in Him.

Lot of you said about the leading of the spirit.

This is part of spiritualizing of our desires- everything we wanted to do, we say, Lord led me to do it. come on. His will is the scripture. Bible didnot give any guidelines about wearing Jewelry or not wearing it.

it is like you should comp your hair or not

Up to you

Mathew

Brother Mathew...the Bible says we need to listen to our spirit as well. " But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh". Gal.5:16. Again in verse 25 Paul says, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit". According to the context of the chapter, the Spirit here is of the Holy Spirit, Who dwells in and mingles with our regenerated human spirit. To walk by the Spirit is to have our walk regulated by the Holy Spirit from within our spirit. And apostle John says, "And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need any one teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it hs taught you, abide in Him". 1John 2:27. It is Scriptural that we must listen to our spirit all the time. Why don't you smoke?? Has it been prohibited in the Bible?? We donot have any guide lines in the Scripture whether or not we should smoke. Yet we donot smoke. Why?? It is answered in the above verses. Dear brother, if your spirit asks you not to comb your hair, then better you may listen to your spirit!!!.....Thomas.

Brother Mathew...the Bible says we need to listen to our spirit as well. " But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh". Gal.5:16. Again in verse 25 Paul says, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit". According to the context of the chapter, the Spirit here is of the Holy Spirit, Who dwells in and mingles with our regenerated human spirit. To walk by the Spirit is to have our walk regulated by the Holy Spirit from within our spirit. And apostle John says, "And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need any one teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it hs taught you, abide in Him". 1John 2:27. It is Scriptural that we must listen to our spirit all the time. Why don't you smoke?? Has it been prohibited in the Bible?? We donot have any guide lines in the Scripture whether or not we should smoke. Yet we donot smoke. Why?? It is answered in the above verses. Dear brother, if your spirit asks you not to comb your hair, then better you may listen to your spirit!!!.....Thomas.

Brother Thomas , you said "Dear brother, if your spirit asks you not to comb your hair, then better you may listen to your spirit!!!." - if it is about what the spirit tells you, in relationship to the topic of discussion, would you agree that till the Spirit asks a person to remove the ornaments, we shouldn't force them or impose it as spirituality? There is no clear guidance on ornaments and therefore shouldn't we leave it to the Spirit.

Thats true. Imoposing any rules upon anyone is of the Law and religion. But we have the law of the Spirit of life with in us. Rom.8:2. It will be clear to you if you read my earlier post # 393...Thomas.

Dear brother Thomas,

thank you for your valuable thoughts.

But sorry to say that it is not so convincing, because why the spirit speaks only to Kerala Pentecostal churches something and rest of the world something else.

Or are you trying to say we are the only people listen to the spirit.???

That sounds like too much of our Hypocrisy.

We should walk in the spirit or Spirit filled means we should be controlled by the Spirit. That is not only in jewelry. In all walks of Life. In every aspect of our lives.

John

Brother John,

 There used be a time when the pentecostals in western countries also did not wear Jewellery. There are still some such churches in america and some hispanic churches too. Either it was obedience to the spirit or some radical thought or decision like the malayalee pentecostals. But as time progressed, a lot of these things weren't emphasised because of the pressures of the popular culture.  And also, remember in malayalee pentecostals churches when  a majority children of pentecostals ask why they can't wear it , they ask not for learning the exact reason but because of their desire to wear it. It is not like the kids had some special revelation from God. I know this is different from the case of new believers on whom we impose this as another criteria for salvation. We in the church are often focussed on what more of the world can we bring into the church than take out. I don't encourage jewelry nor do I condemn it. I am against imposing it on new believers.

BT

Dear BT, I dont think the point is not whether the pentecostal children want to wear Jewelry or not, but the fact that it has been preached in Pentecostal churches as a sign of holiness. That is what we are against. Why are we too much worried only about jewelry. It looks as if it is something different from wearing expensive clothes and showing off. Why dont we condemn when Pentecostal achayans buy the most expensive cars and biggest houses and lots of rubber estates and all these so called leaders of the Pentecostal churches deposit crores of ruppees in their accounts and amassing huge sums of money in the name of doing God's work. Why are you all so much worried about the youth? Why dont all the achayans and ammammas set an example by sacrificing the so called jewelries of your heart. Why are you all achayans wearing matching ties, suits, shoes and ammammas wearing saris worth thosands of ruppees. How come nobody has any problem with it. You all achayans are trying to cover up your own hypocrisy by trying to find fault with the young. Take a look at the riches of these so called pastors. Most of the Leader pastors  in India and America are among the richest now. They drive the most expensive cars, have the biggest houses, have lots of investment in real estate here and in India and wear the most attractive dresses to show off that they are spiritual and that they are ordained by sitting in the front seats on stages. WHy dont you all do something about these things? If you all grown ups start living genuine lives of simplicity, then automatically, the young will follow. Not by being hypocritical.

Oh Lord! who will save us from this corrupt people.

Dear BobbyJ,

You are very much right in saying about the expensive cloths, cars, watches, Estates, etc. that Pentecostal believers are using to "show-up" their wealth.  I am glad you agree that Ornaments is just one in this list. 

The subject question here is "Why is jewelry such a big deal? Isn't it really hypocrisy?".  We are now debating about purely Ornaments only, although the other relative objects is of same importance.  Now the question is the "order" of the listed items.  Since the subject is regarding Ornaments, I would like to again repeat my previous question, "why dont we put ornaments in the top row of the big list"?  Let us start removing Ornaments first as the measure of simplicity and then get rid of other objects in the list.

You and other writers are arguing and claiming two things (1) that Ornaments is not a big deal, and (2) why dont we allow achayans and ammamas to have other expensive objects.  It shows your complete willingness to allow/use both ornaments and other expensive items.  We all should set ourselves as example for others to follow.  So the writers of "simplicity", let us start first with removing ornaments, then getting rid of all other expensive items.  When we say "achayans and ammamas" we sound like they stand as blocks, not allowing US to get rid of ornaments and other expensive objects.  Let us forget for a moment all these achayans and ammamas and start doing it in our lives.  We the youth may not be able to correct 1000 achayans and ammamas people unless we first correct ourselves.  However we will be able to set ourselves as an example for the next generation "youth" to follow.

Evg. Prakash

Please read my post clearly. You are saying the opposite of what I said. Either you are not reading carefully, or you are not understanding it.

why dont you all understand the obvious? It is not about the items, but about the heart. If you dont have the attitude, there is no meaning in removing anything. It is not about all those things. We have to promote simplicity in the heart.