www.sdpathram.com

If I spend a little more and buy something that will cover nakedness as well as look impressive to others, then I should stay back from the Lord's Table. I should only buy clothes to cover nakedness not to impress others.  If I spend a little more money, it should be for the quality of the shirt, so that I would not buy 10 shirts in six months, in stead  of buying one quality shirt in a year.

Evg. Prakash

So when you buy a clothe the only thing in your mind is covering nakedness and durability, it never even cross your mind whether it looks good and impressive. Excellent!!

Note from Moderators: What anyone or their spouse does for a living is not relevant to the topic and therefore such references have been deleted. Please stick to the topic rather than reverting to personal attacks.

Excellent Anonymous,  Now I know who you are and what are you doing in Dublin.  But I would not like to argue with you cheap anonymous on shirt purchasing, as it is not the subject matter here.  Would you like to leave the "shirt" and rather reply to my earlier post just before the shirt business?  I again repeat the same post here....

Anonymous,

It is clearly the typical malayalee pentecostal way not to accept and follow the teachings what they hear from a man of God.  Such typical malayalees are going to churches to give a "mark" to the Pastors messges.  They will say Pastor X is a very good preacher, his message is extremely good.  You have rightly said that you hear many constructive messages from your childhood, yet do not follow them, accept or change your way of life accordingly.  This is typical malayalee character.  These typical people are ready to follow the "new teachings" of the new generation, but they treat the "old teachings" just like KASHAYAM. Because they argue that Kashayam is not good for healing as we today have Alopathy medicines. (dont take it in the real medicinal sense).

You guys are looking for direct statement in the Bible saying "do not wear jewelry to please/serve God".  Anonymous, is it mentioned anywhere DIRECTLY in bible "do not smoke cigarette"?  Did you ever read in Bible DIRECTLY mentioning, that you MUST worship on every Sunday?  Did you ever read in Bible DIRECTLY mentioning that you must close your eyes while praying?  Then why you are following these things my brother?  Are these not the "old intepretation" in your perspective?

You should now understand that your arguments about DIRECT instruction about ornaments in Bible is pointless and childish.  We are doing several things that are not seen DIRECTLY in the same sense in Bible. 

Regarding ornaments, the holy spirit revealed certain facts to our forefathers.  So they passed it on to us.  Now we do not want to listen to the holy spirit, and we are looking for exact sentence in the Bible saying "do not wear jewelry".   If you do not see this verse (about jewelry) in the Bible, then do not be refrained from smoking cigerrate also; Ask your pastor to conduct the worship on a Wednesday evening - why Sunday?  Do  not close your eyes while praying.  These are all "appachan teachings" in your view.

Evg. Prakash

OK brothers...lets not argue over shirt and occupation etc. Lets talk about the topic nicely. Lets talk about the merits of the postings for and against jewelry and people in both school of thoughts, keep an open mind and learn together. Leave the emotions aside, please. Stick to the topic.

Ok, how about this...since there are many people who say these verses are not relevant, how about each of us explain what those verses really mean in our understanding. Say why you believe those verses, when applying the context do or does not fit the argument regarding ornaments. I think that will be more fruitful rather than saying they are old arguments or they dont make sense. lets learn about this. I will read one of those scriptures and try to understand it myself and post it here.

believer.

actually, objectively watching this topic, there are 100 posts regarding this topic and only Prakash has atleast tried to bring scripture into it. Like the other brothers said, I think before anyone posts more on this topic, the scriptures need to be examined. Study if the verses he quoted are relevant. Till you go into the scriptures, we are just saying our opinions or what we would like to say or hear. It is a worthwhile exercise to study this and put an end to this conversation based on the scripture. Explain the reasoning.  So lets do that instead of fighting.

Hi

Dear Prakash,

You stated your arguments more systematically then most other people in this discussion. Most of us go away from the subject and get personal. We are more concerned about who said it, that what is said.

I have a request to Pr Prakash, read some good bible commentaries and interpretations about each of those passages which you have mentioned as support to your argument. Read it with an open mind, not just as a malayalee traditional Pentecostal Pastor. But some one who agree God works and speaks out side kerala and there are other Christians other than we malayalees.

Hope you will take this positively, we are not asking any one wear ornaments, but when see that as the sign of our conversion or spirituality. There is a real problem. Then, we are not Biblical and we give more weight to our good old traditions than God's Word.

Mathew Vackayil   

Prakash, I didnt want to respond to your arguments as they are so child like. But for the sake of other people I am forced to respond. Just like you said that there is no direct statement in the bible reagrding smoking or closing you eyes while praying( I feel disgusted to even answer to this), there is no direct teaching or doctrine regarding wearing Jewelry.

The tradition started to really lead a sacrificial and simplistic lifestyle. They not only gave up ornaments, but also all kinds of luxury. They sold most of their belongings and gave it to others. They wanted to have equality with the poor, so they gave up expensive clothing and ornaments and decided to wear white cheap clothing so that nobody looked richer than others in the church at least. This attitude could be seen among the early politicians also, as they were all trying to follow Gandhiji's principles of simplicity and sacrifice. Actually before our Independence, we even boycotted the clothes made in England as a sign of non cooperation with the British Empire. Remember the Indian Pentecostal movement grew together with the political movement in India. Leading a simple life was a sign of helping others. Thats why you will see the politicians still wear white kadhar dress in Kerala and other states to show equality. The religious also adopted it as it made sense those days. Remember Gandhiji was the example of the best leader and the Hindu sanyasis were the sign of spirituality in India, and so it made sense to be like them to win them.

In both religion and politics, this was started as something good and genuine. You will see this among Catholics, Marthomites, Jacobites, Hindus, Buddhists, Congress, Communists or you name any party in Kerala. In these other denominations, you will see this attitude among the priest hood-nuns and monks and most of them wanted to be genuine.

When it came to neo-Pentecostalism and new politicians, the attitude changed. They were concentrating more on the outward show. Now  a days, the Politicians and Pentecostals spend more money on looking simple than really living a simple life. The kadhar dresses are more expensive now as they are handmade and more expensive to maintain. Pentecostal leaders spend more money to look white outside than leading a simple life.

This is what we are against. Nobody is saying that we need to wear ornaments. But simplicity does not end with the ornaments.The attitude has to change. Nor does spirituality start with not wearing ornaments. Spirituality is in the heart, in the attitude. This outward show of spirituality is what Jesus was against. SO please do not concentrate more on the outside, think of how we can change our attitude and lead simpler lives so that we can become useful for others, just like our Master showed us.

Mathew Vackayil,

Thanks for your comments. I never said that removing ornaments is the sign of conversion or spirituality.  What I am up to is that it is the sign of simplicity. 

Regarding reading good bible commentaries and interpretations, would you please suggest a few of them?

Last but not least - have you at least read those bible verses I quoted?  What did they mean to you?  After reading these references you may read the "commentaries and interpratations" and let me/us know your understanding both from your own bible and other people's commentaries.

Meanwhile, please let me know of few good bibel commentaries and interpratations.

Thanks Mathew,

Evg. Prakash

Anonymous,

I am unable to respond to your comparitive statement of Politics and Religion.  I will only be responding to a biblical quote/discussion.  Indian politics are not discussed here.  If you can bring some bible references, I will try to respond.

You argue that Ornaments removal is not in Bible, hence we should not speak to believers about it.  Same way, closing eyes while praying is not in Bible,  Worshipping onSundays is not in Bible either.  Why dont you get rid of these such Appachan teachings?  Ornaments are Kerala Appachan teachings but the other (above quoted) items are also followed by "white appachans", hence you think they are Biblical...?

Evg. Prakash

Rev. Prakasham, it seems you are a pastor, why you want Mr Mathew who seems to be lay person should suggest what to read. You read any one of your choice and tell all of us, what it says about your own argument, we will just believe you.

John 

SOME GOOD COMMENTARIES

BARCLAY'S

JOHN STOTT

MATHEW HENRY

WARREN WIERSBE

AA

Br John,

I am happy that you are going to believe me, when I will give some references of people's interprations and commentaries.  Why is it so hard for you to believe me when I quoted somany references from the living Word of God, above?

Evg. Prakash

History of Ornaments:

1. Through the ages, man invented various ways and means to cover up their nakedness, after their fall. They tried leaves and barks of trees and bushes as ornaments hanged from neck to foot, to cover their nakedness, irrespective of their sex. Later on, there occurred various changes and alteration according to the modern inventions and discoveries. After the invention of metals, they began to use metals in the place of leaves and barks. Later they found some mysterious power in certain metals, which they used for protection from evil powers. Among such metals are gold, silver, and certain pearls. Thus, the use of metal ornaments came to existence. (Malayalam Encyclopedia. Refer ornaments)
2. Later, ornaments were used to display their pomp and pride. Ezekiel. 7:20. But God wants man to be humble before God. He grants grace to the humble. James 4:6. Thus, ornaments became a cause to sin. Ezekiel 7:19. If it is a stumbling to a believer, then it must be abhorred.
3. Wearing of ornaments has a pagan origin. People believed that all jewels and gems have some mystical power, which can protect them from evil powers. A young man who is fallen in love with a girl will put on her an ornament or ring, which will bring her spirit in to his control. 1 For the fulfillment of desires, people wore some kind of bang lets and rings.
4. Wearing ornaments has some Astrological effects. Astrologers believe that certain gems have some mystical influences on certain planets, which can bring good and evil on human beings.
The following chart depicts each planet and the jewels.
The Sun: a diamond or sapphire set in a ring of gold.
The Moon: a crystal in silver ring.
Mercury: a 'magnet' set in quicksilver.
Mars: an emerald in an iron ring.
Jupiter: a cornelian set in tin.
Venus: an amethyst in copper ring.
Saturn: a turquoise set in lead.
Therefore, wearing ornaments associates men with some superstitious beliefs and its influences. The major encyclopedias I have consulted have lengthy articles describing the superstitious use of finger rings and ornaments as charms, amulets, talismans, and as aids to the worship of various pagan gods. Wearing ornaments, thus become a kind of idol worship.
5. When we study the history of the Church, the early period, we see any apparent use of ornaments. Apostle Peter and John said to the Lame man, at the temple gate, that they did not have any silver or gold. Acts 3:6. They led a life of simplicity. Later, when the Roman Emperor Constantine became a Christian, Christianity became Royal. Believers became rich. Priests got all kinds of royal privileges. Churches were turned into big Cathedrals. People transferred their religion without any transformation of heart. Thus, all kinds of alien practices crept into the church. People lived with all their pomp and proud. They left the life of simplicity of the early church.
6. One of the prominent Canons of the Orthodox Church, known as Hudaya canon, states that when one is baptized, ornaments should be removed. In fact, such an act clearly implies, wearing of ornaments was strictly prohibited in the early churches.

Also refer to more details of Ornaments/Jewelry hisotry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewelry#History

 Evg. Prakash

Br. John,

My name is Prakash, not Prakasham.  Is it ok for you if I call you "onachan" instead of John?  Let us all use good language and develop good cutlture.

Evg. Prakash

I think that it is important for people who say there is no scriptural basis for saying no to ornaments, somebody please explain the verses he quoted. I used to think it was ok to wear jewellry but after reading that post with the verses, I have doubts. Instead of saying, it is pathetic and old etc..just explain what all those verses mean..one by one... please somebody...atleast explain the verses you know about.

its frustrating.

Yes brothers - let us "at least" take some time to read those verses in the Bible.  Reading Bible and understanding the meaning is far better than going & arguing with our own personal opinions.  This entire discussion forum should be turned to such that all participants should discuss and bring forth their points based on Bible - because we are all believers and we stand on the Word.  I can positively say that about 95% of all writings in this discussion forum are "personal opinions" not based on Bible.  Brothers, anyway we are spending our precious time to go through and write here, why don't we write things from the Bible.  If you do not know the appropriate Bible references, please keep away until you go back and gain understanding from the Bible.

Brother Prakash has brought some valid Bible references to this "jewelry" topic, so let us leave our "malayalee" attitude of "not able to accept", and start evaluate each one of them by sitting in front of the Word.  Our basis of arguments should ONLY be the Bible -  not Indian culture, politics, lifestyles of different countries, etc.  Pishachinu Idam Kodukkaruthe.  If we are discussing or bringing knowledge from outside Bible, we are giving chances to Satan to work among us.  This is when we start fighting.  I have no hesitation to accept whatever the Bible teaches, and I think my all brothers would be the same.  So let us stop talking about worldly matters from now on.

Thank you for listening..
Carpenter' Disciple.

Brother's in Christ,

  I was just going through some of the writings but not all, really most of the talks are un-wanted in my view. Let me tell all of you that simplicity never come if you only remove your ornaments, if it please give me some examples?? let me ask you brother i know lots who never ever worn a ornaments but they use to construct and live in such buildings which we cannot imagine, do you think this is simplicity? Do you need such huge houses to live in the world as all of us use to say Jesus is coming but just think a moment? Always we use to give preference to the top brand of shirts etc why don't go for the cheep one? tell me is the Pentecost people show the simplicity through not wearing Ornaments, Moustache (Meesa) and Beard (Thadi). Please none of we don’t have right to talk about simplicity. Simplicity is the way of life which our Jesus Christ Lead in the world for all of us. Please stop talking Simplicity. Bring some valid points than simplicity if any one has.

Joji

 

Br.Joji,

Looks like you have just entered this thread and want to throw something straight out of your head.  Dear Joji, you must be reading all posts on this "jewelry" thread, where you will definitely see answers to all your concerns.  You are looking at people in Pentecostal churches and comparing simplicity.  Who told you to do this?  This is the mistake lots of people (was) doing in this thread and later they realized it is a very much wrong idea and they have stopped writing.  CHRIST JESUS is only and only example we have to follow.  Read Hebrew 12:2-4.  What I am upto is to change everybody's focus from those so-called Pentecostal show-off people (they are worldly) and start looking at Jesus Christ, who is the best example of Simplicity.

Secondly why should we stop talking Simplicity?  Was simplicity only for Jesus?  Are we not supposed to be simple?  Can we not be simple?  If we are ready to leave our pride, simplicity will begin in us.  Removing ornaments, is one of the many ways of a simple lifestyle.  Don't you agree?  So the significance of this thread is "Jewelry" and hence I would put it on the top-row of the list of items comes under simplicity.  I agree with your point on "bungalows", expensive cars, expensive dresses, etc. as we should always be refrained from these also.

JOJI, if you cannot see anybody around in the Pentecost that leads a simple life, may I ask you to start it yourself?  Let us start this good work ourselves...be a disciple with "simplicity" and STOP looking at fallen people.  This is the aim of my writings about "simplicity".  If you are "simple" in heart, you must be "simple" outward as well.  External person should reflect the internal person.  If your inner person is not "simple" your external person will reflect that.  Don't tell me you are "simple" in your heart but do not want to show that you are Simple externally.  If you say so, you are not at all simple in your heart.

Evg. Prakash

Evang. Prakash,

 I do agree with some of your points, but what am trying to say is only not wearing ornaments does not mean that you are simple and humble. As a beliver you must be simple in all our way of life. Normally we are very simple in all matters to just save money. What I suppose say that Ornaments removals are not mainly to show the simplicity there are lots of spiritual stands behind it. Don't mix-up with simplicity and ornaments. In my view these are in two angles.

Joji

Dear Joji,

The matter we discuss here is about Jewelry.  Many people argued with me that it is not a sign of "conversion" or "being spiritual" when you remove ornaments.  I agree.  My whole point is Jewelry removal is ONE OF THE SIGNS of simplicity.  I am not saying that only Jewelry removal is simplicity.  We have to be simple in all walks of life.  Are we ready to start such a life?  If we are, then we will no more argue and fight for "hanging" metals on the mortal bodies, for no known reasons or benefits.

Evg. Prakash

Dear Anonymous who started this "Jewelry" thread at at 02-27-2007 1:00 PM...

Having read and enjoyed this thread, is it good time to write a conclusion..?  Now that nobody is writing eversince Evangelist Prakash appeared in with few Bible references and arguments, looks like people sort of understood if it is really hypocrisy..  Would appreciate your response.

Carpenter's Disciple.

No dear, I think people are now reading the scriptures and will come back with more ideas. We may give it some more time before conclusion..?

Evg. Prakash

If ornaments were so allergic to God and the Israelites removed it, then why did God ask them to bring their ornaments when building the temple. So obviously, they had ornaments and the same ornaments were used by God to build His temple.